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What a shocker
Michael Ellenbogen
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 2:00 PM
Joined: 11/30/2011
Posts: 4384


 I wanted you to know about my latest’s results just published in the Washington Post. I do hope you are sitting down as I can tell you it was a real shocker for me.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/i-lived-with-an-alzheimers-diagnosis-for-years-but-a-recent-test-says-i-may-not-have-it-after-all/2017/10/27/b461cace-af58-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html?utm_term=.488d1bc6440e


Mimi S.
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 6:26 PM
Joined: 11/29/2011
Posts: 7027


Michael 

I do not consider you a fraud .

Our understanding of  Alzheimer’s is being continually changed  Likewise,our understanding of the different types of dementia is being expanded  

Years ago I began a speech in front of a committee of the PAa

 Legislators by saying:

Yes, I have been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s.  And yes,I am going to die, not today,

, not tomorrow and maybe not for a long,long time.

I did get my ducks in a row . Some of us progress fast and some slowly.  Two neurologists hypothize that my slowness may be due to another neurological disease I also have.l  Morerrsearchwill required to figure out if it’s other than chance.

The presence of amyloid defines AZ. If so still to be determined is what is going on with those who have symptoms no amyloid,  I’m not convinced but I’m not  a brain researcher   Michael I have known others who have received the same  news after that scanned.

Michael, I have known one person who received that same news after that scam.

 


Iris L.
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 7:39 PM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


Michael, we are like diagnostic twins.  Thirty years ago I had to leave my profession due to memory loss, which was diagnosed as depression/anxiety.  There was no such diagnosis as MCI in those days.  Last year I also had an Amvid PET scan which showed no amyloid in my brain.  My neurologist had never diagnosed Alzheimer's Disease, but had given me a diagnosis of cognitive impairment not otherwise specified.  My rheumatologist believes my impairments are due to complications of antiphospholipid syndrome, which can be affiliated with systemic lupus.  I believe there are some patients who do have classic Alzheimer's Disease, with a steady decline, and there are other patients who have atypical dementias, with a variety of etiologies, most of which will not be determined until after death, if ever.


Michael, all of your advocacy and awareness work has been only beneficial.  There are too few answers, and so much work still to be done.  I don't know if you are aware, but I will be attending the cruise with you.  I look forward to finally meeting you and the others.  We will have great stories to tell each other.


Mimi S.
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 7:48 PM
Joined: 11/29/2011
Posts: 7027


I’m so glad. Iris, that you are going on the cruise.  Another presentor is  a friend of mine.She, like Michael and myself, are all from Pa.   Enjoy.
Michael Ellenbogen
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 7:50 PM
Joined: 11/30/2011
Posts: 4384


 Wow, You have made me so happy to know you will be on the cruise. I was so looking forward to meeting you. I think you will really enjoy it and will meet some great folks who have dementia. Are you coming into Fl. The day before early in the morning? 


Iris L.
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 7:54 PM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


Thanks, Mimi.  I was just going over the itinerary.  It's like a conference on a ship.  There are workshops and panels each day.  I'm expecting to learn a lot out by attending.  


Iris L.


Iris L.
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 8:00 PM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


Michael, I will be getting in early Saturday, the morning of the cruise.  I will go from the airport to the hotel and join the rest of you for the transfer to the ship.  I have begun to pack today.

Iris L.


llee08032
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2017 9:57 AM
Joined: 5/20/2014
Posts: 4408


Wasn't it the nun study that revealed no amyloid plaques? I may be thinking of something else all together. No Michael, you are not a fraud. Just different somehow from normal alz presentation with who knows what type of dementia?

I hope Iris and you thoroughly enjoy the cruise!


jfkoc
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2017 10:32 AM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 21138


We want pictures and updates of all of you on your cruise. Imagine all of you together!
Mimi S.
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2017 7:16 PM
Joined: 11/29/2011
Posts: 7027


As far as i recall the nun's study was the first to comment on the anomaly of dementia and no plaques and vice versa.  I've never seen any kind of an explanation.

 


Canada111
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:43 AM
Joined: 8/22/2016
Posts: 263


It's from 2015, but this report states that many Alzheimer's patients have minimal amyloid plaque. 

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/850038 


alz+
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:03 AM
Joined: 9/12/2013
Posts: 3608


Michael - beautifully written article.

I am on the side that plaques are a red herring. There have been plenty of autopsies where a person exhibited all the symptoms of Alzheimer's dementia and had little plaque or tangles. So the drugs that minimize what is not even certain a sign of dementia are not going to create a cure.

The work you have done remains tremendously helpful and important. Proud to know you. Your inner strength has helped me often over the years.

Wish I was going on the cruise and look forward to tales from the high seas.

****

I was sickened by the comments after the article. You have always seemed more capable of shrugging off that stuff, and reacting to it is a waste of time, but it still feels like a punch in the stomach. 

The colossal ignorance displayed by those people is why we need all of us to stand up and tell them they are wrong. 

Sail away! Tell it like it is!


Michael Ellenbogen
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:40 AM
Joined: 11/30/2011
Posts: 4384


Thanks Alz+, The comments for those people just show the ignorance we deal with. I am even surprised some of those folks can even read the WP.  Some of those folks need to get a life. I never let that stuff bother me as I just laugh at it.

 

What I was amazed about was the over 10 people who have reached out to me that also fall in my boat. They all so had a negative test and they are in limbo or going down different paths trying to figure out the next steps for the. Most have not even come out to share it with others as they feel ashamed which is total ridiculous. At the same time many scammers came out of the woodwork trying to sell me some new cure. I just loves those scammers who prey on the hopeless.

 

The actual article printed today in the WP. Not sure if it is identical or not. Waiting to get a hard copy. 


Mimi S.
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 8:40 AM
Joined: 11/29/2011
Posts: 7027


I read the article Canada quoted with interest. I would be interested in reading a remake of the article written for the lay person.

What I get out of the article is that they are still debating, but still assuming,  the amyloid presence as a requirement for AD diagnosisYet about 80% of dementia diagnoses are for AD and the rest for other types.  And we realize more and more that a mixed diagnosis may be more probable for more than is now thought.

I copied the following from the article:

Dr Reiman pointed out that although close to 45% of individuals with minimal plaque had evidence of somewhat extensive tau pathology, a similar percentage of older adults without dementia had the same amount of tau pathology.

Of the 50 persons with no more than sparse neuritic plaques, 5 had a normal brain and 33 had a non-AD pathologic diagnosis, including 8 with vascular disease, 6 with Lewy body disease, 5 with hippocampal sclerosis, 4 with frontotemporal lobar degeneration, and 3 with tangle-only dementia.

These new results suggest that there's a group of patients without amyloid or another form of pathology who have dementia "and we don't know why just yet," said Dr Reiman.

Thoughts???

 


Unforgiven
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:16 PM
Joined: 1/28/2013
Posts: 2659


My thoughts are that, plaques or no plaques, the symptoms still suck.  This complicates the search for successful treatments.

That was a very interesting article, Michael.


Iris L.
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:40 PM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


The medications that I take that help me, Exelon patch and Nameda, help my neurotransmitters.  They have nothing to do with amyloid.  I look upon them like I  do my eyeglasses--as an assist, not a reversal of disease.  Frankly, I'm not even thinking about amyloid now.  I have more pressing things to think about.  Knowing more about amyloid won't help me.  I feel it's a distraction.


Iris L.


Lane Simonian
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 3:02 PM
Joined: 12/12/2011
Posts: 5140


I am glad, Michael (and Iris, too) that the scan gave you some more clarity.  It must be frustrating not to have a definitive diagnosis, but at least neither of you appear to have Alzheimer's disease.

I say this not so much because of the results of the scans, but because the type of cognitive impairment seems to be progressing slowly if at all and that other symptoms suggest another form of dementia.

A correct diagnosis (if possible) is important because what might help in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease may not help in the treatment of other forms of dementia and vice versa.

Amyloid is important in this sense: if it not the cause of Alzheimer's disease than a lot of time and effort has been wasted focusing on it.

There are different forms of amyloid including different forms of plaques.  Diffuse plaques are a sign of oxidative stress that has not proceeded too far.  Both nuns who ate a diet high in antioxidant polyphenols (such as grapefruit) and children exposed to high levels of air pollution in Mexico City have plaques in their brain but have only subtle cognitive problems.  On the other hand, dense core plaques are a sign (not a cause) of heavy oxidative stress.  I have read that scans can now identify both diffuse and dense core plaques.

On the other hand, it is possible to have extensive oxidative stress (which among other things lead to tau tangles) without having any amyloid.   Amyloid oligomers (pre-plaques) contribute to oxidative stress but so too do many other factors.  Removing or preventing the formation of amyloid oligomers only delays the onset of Alzheimer's disease and slows down its early progression.  Removing plaques appears to do neither.

The key to the prevention and treatment of Alzheimer's disease (including partial reversal) depends on the removal of oxidants and reversing some of the damage that they do to the brain.  CBD oil for example contains three categories of antioxidant compounds--cannabidiol, cannabinoids (such as THC), and terpenes.  These compounds help to partially restore levels of neurotransmitters needed for the retrieval of short-term memory, sleep, mood, social recognition, and alertness.  As more compounds like this are identified perhaps even more progress is made against Alzheimer's disease.



Iris L.
Posted: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 12:49 PM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


Thanks for commenting, Lane.  I didn't know that there was different types of amyloid. Since I was diagnosed with having systemic lupus almost twenty-four years ago, I have been eating a high anti-oxidant diet.  I believe my memory and cognitive problems are of a vascular nature anyway.  As part of my receiving the Amyvid PET scan, I have been enrolled in two clinical trials.  I just received the material for a genetic swab yesterday.  Perhaps some day in the future, researchers will be able to use my data and come up with some constructive diagnostic or therapeutic information to help other patients.


Iris L.


Michael Ellenbogen
Posted: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 1:34 PM
Joined: 11/30/2011
Posts: 4384


Iris, I was wondering what type of clinical trial you are in since the PET came back negative. I would think our Negative PET eliminates us from the majority of the clinical trials that are out there today. 


Lane Simonian
Posted: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 2:01 PM
Joined: 12/12/2011
Posts: 5140


Iris, I had the same question as Michael regarding the clinical trials you are enrolled in.  

An anti-oxidant diet is likely good for almost any form of cognitive impairment.

Iris L.
Posted: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:44 PM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


The group that provided the Amyvid PET scan was IDEAS--Imaging Dementia Evidence for Amyloid Scanning.  The group that I am dealing with are out of Indiana University.  The genetic testing clinical study is the ANGI (Amyloid Neuroimaging and Genetics Initiative) study.  


There was another study, whose name I cannot remember, which consisted of about 30 minutes of cognitive tests over the internet.  From what I understand, they will repeat the tests periodically.


I am happy to finally be able to do my part to participate in any type of study that will try to find answers for this cognitive condition.  All other studies I have been eliminated from, solely because I do not have a care partner.  Medically and scientifically I fall into many categories and would be a great research subject, if I do say so myself, because I have many risk factors.  From what I understand, this is not a treatment clinical trial, but a diagnostic clinical trial.  Regardless, I'm glad to be a part of it.


Iris L.


Keep It 100
Posted: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 4:55 PM
Joined: 2/26/2017
Posts: 586


Michael, I hope you are well, and yes, I am sure this was quite a shock. I am glad for you that it is not the hideous progressive Alz that so many of us here are facing, but whatever has been going on, it has clearly disrupted your life in areas you can never recover. There must be so many conflicted feelings in so many ways right now that I hope you and your wife are coping well with this change of direction, and finding lots of peace, love and support. 

I have a couple of questions for you! Because, like you, my husband and I are very active and public advocates for Alzheimer's Association. We, too, are Ambassadors, and we met you and your wife, in fact, last March in DC. We are only 18 mos in, to your many many years, but have, like you, made public appearances on the local news, a syndicated talk show with Maria Shriver, and have raised 10's of thousands of dollars via "Team Ray" for the association. You are no fraud, and have been an amazing voice for our cause, but if I, like you , had to turn around and say, oh, no, not Alz... I would be pretty embarrassed, considering the public show we have made. My hope is that you are not feeling embarrassed, and I will boldly presume that you are not, given your forthright, honest, and very public address of the circumstances. Bravo to you!

There is no doubt that Ray has progressive YOAD, verified by full blood work up to rule out everything, neuropsych, initial MRI showing 25% shrinkage, then lumbar results indicating a pathology of very advanced plaques and tangles (super low ABeta, super high phos tau, almost off the chart for both), then further confirmation with the PET you had, and then another lumbar for entry to an Alz trial. (And btw, he, in one year, has moved from a stage 4-5...no lingering for a decade or so...) So that leads to my first question...

How were you diagnosed? And how was it you were so sure of the YOAD dx to begin with?  No lumbar? No PET, until now? I was pretty certain you had, like Ray, been working with some of the top minds in the field. What was different? I think this is the most troublesome aspect of this disease, the lack of consistency across the field, the profuse lack of understanding....

And...what trials did you participate  in? Again, in order for Ray to be included in the Alz trial at Georgetown, he had to have a pretty definitive Alz pathology via PET and lumbar. I am so confused about how you participated in so many trials for alz without the pathology....

Were the trials simply relying on an mmse? And if so, and if yours was compromised to a significant degree, then, wow, what is going on?

This is personal and not something I would normally ask, so feel free to ignore, but what other mental problems could have been creating these alz-like problems? Again, comparing to the only alz patient I know, Ray, I can say with absolute certainty that as he is concerned, there were no issues with his heart, vascular system, diabetes, or depression, bi-polar...no Lyme, no  chronic fatigue, no sleep apnea, no any-syndrome at all known to cause memory issues, etc etc. 

And finally...now what? What is your path forward in unraveling this mystery of two decades of issues? I will say here, that after meeting you, and examining what you (not your wife, but you) were doing, I was baffled. Ray, at a supposedly much earlier point in his timeline, was not capable of doing 1/100 of what you were, and I was mystified. Well, no longer so....

Hopefully you are in that category where some rigorous protocol like Dr Bredesen's will have that positive effect it had on the other patients in his initial limited crew of subjects. Maybe they were more like you in their actual diagnosis? That would be fantastic. 

I do wish you the best. And I do hope that your new knowledge, your new place from which you advocate, continues to help everyone on this cognitive disorder spectrum. 


BadMoonRising
Posted: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 6:07 PM
Joined: 4/22/2017
Posts: 335


From what I have read, anyone who has participated in the IDEAS study are eligible to participate in any of the three follow up studies. I think...

That said, I tested positive and have elected to enroll in the Brain Health Registry and the ANGI. 

Michael, based on my test result, my medical record now reflects that I have Alzheimer's Disease. I would prefer that it did not but the whole purpose of the study was to determine whether the amyvid result would change the patient's plan of care. 

Unlike my neurologist, I expected a positive result. However, I did not expect the degree of amyloid burden I carried. If I hadn't walked out of the radiology center holding a CD copy of my scan, I  would have sworn the radiology center had switched my scan with that of someone in a latter stage of AD. Except no atrophy. It's very perplexing but I've spent the last few weeks researching the heck out of it and I now have a better understanding of how it all works.  

Thanks for all of your hard work. I hope that you continue to advocate on behalf of those with Alzheimer's.  


Lane Simonian
Posted: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 11:24 PM
Joined: 12/12/2011
Posts: 5140


Thanks for the clinical trial information, Iris and for the additional clinical trial information, Bad Moon Rising.
llee08032
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 7:36 AM
Joined: 5/20/2014
Posts: 4408


If anyone wants to get angry, not that anyone does read some of the ignorant comments on Michael's article. "Can people with AD or MCI write?" Really? 

Michael I don't think you owe anyone any explanations.  Many PWD have been dx w/o dx confirmed by the scan. As many perhaps would like to get the scan if their insurance would cover it or if they could afford to pay for it. That's the problem as I see it; lack of opportunities for medical testing and tx. Having ones symptoms questioned or dx questioned and being compared or measured in terms of progression or the lack of is part of the stigma and ignorance surrounding dementia.


llee08032
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 7:46 AM
Joined: 5/20/2014
Posts: 4408


If  a person was misdiagnosed with cancer or heart disease where would the blame lie? It certainly wouldn't fall on the shoulders of the patient. 
Michael Ellenbogen
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:21 AM
Joined: 11/30/2011
Posts: 4384


 I could be wrong but I thought I may have shared my book with you at that time which had all of my history. Anyway I have had multiple Pet scans which at this point I would have to think they were misread but cannot say for sure. I have had almost every test possible by more than on doctor.  

 

I have been in over 10 trails. Most take your word and others do their own testing to insure you fit the program. Keep in mind until recent they did not do Amyloid PET scans so that will start to change how the do these trails.

 

My MMSE has declined and so has my MOCA. 25 + 24

 

At this point most of the experts don’t think I have a path to do more testing. That is one of the reasons I am thinking of Dr Bredesen's Protocal.

 

 


Lane Simonian
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 9:56 AM
Joined: 12/12/2011
Posts: 5140


The following is somewhat complicated, but important to understanding Alzheimer's disease and perhaps other forms of cognitive impairment.

The first cut in the amyloid precursor protein depends on intracellular calcium release.  Intracellular calcium release also stimulates the enzyme (protein kinase C via NMDA receptors) that leads to the death of neurons.  But protein kinase C can be activated independently of intracellular calcium release.  Several compounds including Aricept and caffeine can inhibit intracellular calcium release, thus limiting the formation of amyloid but not stopping the ultimate progression of Alzheimer;s disease.  It is possible, then, to have little amyloid in one's brain and still have Alzheimer's disease (although in most cases, the person does not have Alzheimer's disease).  

Amyloid oligomers are one of dozens of factors that stimulate protein kinase C (others include stress, sleep apnea, environmental toxins, and infections).  Without the activation of protein kinase C there is no Alzheimer's disease.

"Malinow's team found when mice are missing the PKC alpha gene, neurons functioned normally, even when amyloid beta was present.  Then when they restored PKC alpha, amyloid beta once again impaired neuronal function.  In other words, amyloid beta does not inhibit brain function unless PKC alpha is active."

Much of the Bredesen protocol is really aimed at identifying and removing the factors that cause protein kinase C activation (reducing stress, lowering glucose levels, improving sleep, removing exposure to toxins, etc.).

The problem, however, is that the same oxidative stress that follows protein kinase C activation also eventually disables protein kinase C itself.  So in most cases, the Bredesen protocol becomes less effective as the disease progresses.

The exception is antioxidants. The key to the later progression of the disease is as follows.

"We suggest that oxidative stress mediated through NMDAR and their interaction with other molecules might be a driving force for tau hyperphosphorylation and synapse dysfunction. Thus, understanding the oxidative stress mechanism and degenerating synapses is crucial for the development of therapeutic strategies designed to prevent AD pathogenesis."

The NMDA receptor antagonist Namenda/memantine is supposed to prevent this problem but it does so only weakly.  The better choice is specific antioxidants.  The Bredesen protocol employs several antioxidants the following: resveratrol, thiamine, mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols (Vitamn E), selenium, absorbate (Vitamin C), blueberries, N acetylcysteine, alpha lipoic acid, coenzyme Q 10, and coconut oil or Axona.  

Better antioxidants can be found in CBD oil, essential oils via aromatherapy, and panax ginseng.  

The Bredesen protocol is not perfect, but it is better than most treatments for cognitive impairment that currently exist.



Michael Ellenbogen
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 10:14 AM
Joined: 11/30/2011
Posts: 4384


 It sounds like a lot of the things I already do. The one thing about his protocol is I think they test for thing many doctors do not test for which would be interesting such as mercury poisoning, mold and other things in the home. The good news is if it is mercury poisoning they are offering to take care of all of the expenses which would be a lot for me.  If I do their protocol I may also have their test duplicated with my own folks just to insure they are the same Again not sure I trust them yet.  By the way I started the other Homeopathic trail this past weekend. 


Keep It 100
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 10:14 AM
Joined: 2/26/2017
Posts: 586


Michael Ellenbogen wrote:

I have had multiple Pet scans which at this point I would have to think they were misread but cannot say for sure. I have had almost every test possible by more than on doctor.  

 

 

 

Thanks Michael!! That is what I would have assumed, and certainly find no comfort in having you confirm that. I find it quite disturbing. Your experience should be quite an eye opener for the research field. 
It will be interesting to see what effects the Bredesen protocol have, should you choose to take up that offer. I will keep you in my thoughts for positive results!

alz+
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 2:21 PM
Joined: 9/12/2013
Posts: 3608


Michael Ellenbogen wrote:

Thanks Alz+, 

What I was amazed about was the over 10 people who have reached out to me that also fall in my boat. They also had a negative test and they are in limbo or going down different paths trying to figure out the next steps for them. 

************************

I imagine there are thousands of people being told there is nothing wrong with them,  or that they do not fit the profile with medical evidence to support a diagnosis.

I wanted to comment about "how long it has been" for some people, that they do not seem to decline as fast as expected they would.

I had old video tapes transferred  to dvd from early 1990's. Watching them really stunned me. I had all kinds of weird symptoms back then, was told I had MS. The videos were of me talking to myself while filming my dogs over 5 years. I was flooded with memories of ways I used to accommodate anxiety by living alone in the country, avoiding people after work, taking walks, and the changes I made since there was no cure for MS. My limbs would be numb, lost the ability to sweat, had trouble parking a car, tremendous fatigue etc

I did physical labor 6 days a week and walked and juiced and ate 90% vegetarian. No smoke or alcohol. At the same time my Dad was diagnosed so being with him was part of my week. There was an undercurrent of something wrong and after 2000 it had intensified until I could no longer work 20% of my past schedule.

About 2005 things had progressed into losing things, miscalculations, fear of money issues, and tensions while riding in a car. I was diagnosed as "bi-polar" and medicated. Nightmare.

In 2013 I was finally diagnosed. If I had not watched and listened to myself on those tapes I would not be as certain as I am now that what was happening back then was the beginning of Alzheimer's at age 42. So from onset of symptoms - not medical evidence - it has been almost 30 years of decline.

My father had odd behaviors for 14 years before he was diagnosed. The idea this happens and we all fold our tents on a 10 year timeline is not true. 

If someone feels the changes, and maybe only in retrospect they recognize this, those things are signs. 

No one can say what we have. It is hard way to live. We are using our lives to redirect researchers to a treatment and cure and I am proud to be in this group.



Iris L.
Posted: Saturday, November 4, 2017 3:50 PM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


Nobody knows what this really is.  I hesitate to call myself having Alzheimer's Disease because I don't want that label.  But I have the impairments and I'm having more difficulty, and the medications are helping me.  I don't want to be without them.  I have given up any thought of falling into other people's expectations about my life.  I'll help with research as much as I can.  But I'm going to live out the rest of my life the best way I can, and enjoy as much as I can.  Michael, I don't think there are only 10 people in this boat.  I think there are a lot, with or without various diagnoses, all struggling.  I hope to gain some insight from the attendants on the cruise conference.  It's been thirty years for me too.  Suppose I did have that label.  Nothing would change.

Iris L.


Iris L.
Posted: Sunday, November 5, 2017 12:04 PM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


Michael, look up leukoaraiosis and see if it might apply to you.  It involves loss of oxygen to the brain and causes cognitive impairment.


Iris L.


Michael Ellenbogen
Posted: Sunday, November 5, 2017 12:55 PM
Joined: 11/30/2011
Posts: 4384


Thanks Iris but I don’t think that is me. 


Iris L.
Posted: Monday, November 6, 2017 1:48 AM
Joined: 12/15/2011
Posts: 18362


Okay.  My neurologist mentioned this to me.  I'll see you in a few days.

Iris L.