RSS Feed Print
The crime of manipulation.
Jim Broede
Posted: Sunday, February 4, 2018 3:18 PM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


 

Taking charge of my life. That’s very important. Far better. Than letting others do it. For me. That would be a sad state of affairs. I have to be careful. Every day. About being manipulated. To do this and that. Automatically. Without forethought. I see it happening. Every day. Around me. I live. In the land of the eternally manipulated. People unable to think for themselves. Sad. So sad. That’s the danger of a democracy. Everyone having a vote. Even when they don’t know what they are voting about. Therefore. They often vote against their best interests. Happens. Nearly all of the time. To the delight. Of the manipulators. I’d make manipulation a crime. Let’s have a national debate. Over the severity of the punishment. --Jim

 


jfkoc
Posted: Sunday, February 4, 2018 3:31 PM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 18854


We manipulate every time we try to influence someone.
Jim Broede
Posted: Sunday, February 4, 2018 4:04 PM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


No. No. I can influence. Without manipulating. But I can also choose to manipulate. My enemies. Not my friends. Maybe I'm drawing a thin line. Nevertheless, it's a distinct line. --Jim
Underdog
Posted: Sunday, February 4, 2018 9:47 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


Manipulation is the use of deceit. Here are a few tactics that I would think a manipulator would use:

 

Unrelenting oppressive judgment and criticism in order to desensitize and indoctrinate.

Negative humor designed to poke at weaknesses and to disempower.

Pretending ignorance or false humility as a tactic in order to hide, or avoid a responsibility that the manipulator wishes to avoid.

It seems a manipulator would present himself as a martyr in order to illicit sympathy. It appeals to the good will of those targeted.

A lack of forthright discussion via a muddying of the waters to obfuscate.

 

 

So look for these things while looking for differences in "manipulation" or "influence".

I agree it's a distinct line, but I don't think many people can see it.

And I don't have anybody in my life that I communicate with that I consider my enemy.

 


Jim Broede
Posted: Sunday, February 4, 2018 11:44 PM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


I communicate with all sorts of people, Underdog. Friend and foe alike. Funny thing. Some of my foes have become my friends. Because we learned to communicate. Got to know each other. Imagine that. Some people I once disliked, I learned to like. Perhaps I have no real ‘enemies.’  I could have used a better and more accurate term,  such as 'opponent' or 'adversary'. Like in a game of sport. I’m a Cubs fan. And I facetiously call the Cardinals ‘the enemy.’ As a figure of speech. Just for the fun of it. To stoke the rivalry. It’s not meant to be taken seriously. After all, we’re just playing a game. Even life is sort of a game. Especially when it’s played for fun. I'm having lots of fun. What about you?  -Jim
Jim Broede
Posted: Sunday, February 4, 2018 11:54 PM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


I often say, let's not take life too seriously. --Jim
Underdog
Posted: Monday, February 5, 2018 1:49 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


Look Jim, I love you like a brother but you are going to have to change your musings style. Even after I make the list of manipulations, you post item after item that fits right into the observations I made. No one believes your self-deprecating observations.

You need to post something other than you, your opinions about yourself, what you think about the opinions you have about yourself, and how you think what you think is so dang important.

Your disdaining flaw is your disdain of white supremacy? Really? You wonder if that is so wrong? What must you think about serial killers?

Here is an example of a musing:

My grand niece was watching me play solitaire with some playing cards at the kitchen table. She says, "Oh, that's the game they have on the computer."

Or airplane peanuts or shopping carts that get left in the parking spaces and you think it's an open spot until you try to drive into it.

I'm going to tell you something... I have gotten to the point where I click on your posts just to see how long you can do the same thing, and make the same observations. They no longer make me angry.

If you have some kind of CDO, (That's OCD in alphabetical order, the way it's supposed to be) then I apologize.

C'mon Jim, step up your writing game. Surprise me.

 


jfkoc
Posted: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:47 PM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 18854


To manipulate someone is to manage or influence them in your favor. To deceive someone is to mislead someone with a false appearance or statement.

Bob Sacamano
Posted: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:59 PM
Joined: 1/31/2012
Posts: 500


Jim,

Here's a thumbs up for your posts. I have always enjoyed your stream of consciousness writing style. All the posts on forums like this are repetitive to some degree. Please don't change your subject matter. We already have enough people writing observational humor stories.


Jim Broede
Posted: Monday, February 5, 2018 10:29 PM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


Look, brother Underdog, I ain’t gonna change my musing/writing style. Any more than I’d expect you to change your style. To each his own. I do. What’s comfortable for me. And I assume you do what’s comfortable for you. That’s the way it should be. We are different guys. But I still respect the way you go about your business.  I may not always like it. But hey, I still show you respect. And I have no desire to change you, or your style. Be yourself, Underdog. You owe it to yourself.  Same with me. I’m being myself. I write. In a way. That’s natural. For me. Have you noticed the short sentences? --Jim


Jim Broede
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:37 AM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


I make no apology. For being different. Maybe a bit odd. Eccentric. --Jim
Jim Broede
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:45 AM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


Yes. Yes, jfkoc. I don't attempt to deceive anyone. Therefore, I am not a manipulator, I disdain  manipulators. You have helped me clear my conscience. Yes, I do have a conscience. I wrestle with it. Often. --Jim
llee08032
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:16 AM
Joined: 5/20/2014
Posts: 4405


Underdog wrote:

 

Manipulation is the use of deceit. Here are a few tactics that I would think a manipulator would use:

 

Unrelenting oppressive judgment and criticism in order to desensitize and indoctrinate.

Negative humor designed to poke at weaknesses and to disempower.

Pretending ignorance or false humility as a tactic in order to hide, or avoid a responsibility that the manipulator wishes to avoid.

It seems a manipulator would present himself as a martyr in order to illicit sympathy. It appeals to the good will of those targeted.

A lack of forthright discussion via a muddying of the waters to obfuscate.  

So look for these things while looking for differences in "manipulation" or "influence".

I agree it's a distinct line, but I don't think many people can see it.

And I don't have anybody in my life that I communicate with that I consider my enemy.

 

Good description of sociopathy Underdog!

Jim Broede
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:14 AM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


Donald Trump.
jfkoc
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:29 AM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 18854


1. The items in a grocery store have been carefully arranged...manipulation

2. The flowers in your garden have been arranged to capture your attention

3. The "pictures' on your wall have been carefully manipulated furst by subject then arrangement.

4. When you bring up a subject to be discussed you are manipulating.

5. The use of color is manipulative.

Any time you steer someone's thought process you are manipulating. Just the way we say something involves manipulation...what words to use.

We go through the day manipulating others as well as being manipulated. 

Deceit  is not a requirement!


Jim Broede
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:36 AM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


My gawd! I am a manipulator. A criminal, In my own mind.
Underdog
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 1:20 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


 

Manipulation---  to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.

Lol, you hang out with the wrong people if their motive for growing flowers is to manipulate.

I do understand, however, that people who don't need any punctuation marks except for periods, or think that sentences are composed of single words may not know the proper use of the word "manipulation".

But that's why I said that the there is a line between influence and manipulation, but most people can't see it. I never for the life of me thought that people would think that every action we take in our lives was manipulation!!

 


jfkoc
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 2:14 PM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 18854


It is not the growing of the flowers but when you are a designer you plan for effect.Every color, size and texture is considered for over all effect.

The color and placement of food containers is done very carefully.

I guess if you will not think out of the box you will never agree that manipulation is not always negative.

Yes, I am trying to manipulate your thinking. 


Underdog
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:31 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


Yes, and when you shuffle cards, you manipulate them. It's not a crime to shuffle cards, I get that.

I worked for designers my whole adult life and never heard them ONCE refer to their use of colors and design as manipulating their clients. They would be offended at the thought.

They merely were trying to create the best look possible.

You have watered down the meaning of the word to where it has no meaning.

Trying to please someone is not manipulating. Does anybody here have a regard for the use of language?

I guess I manipulated my community when I picked up a piece of trash off of the ground.

Sheesh.


jfkoc
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:48 PM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 18854


I promise you that being a designer involves a lot more than creating a look. I would love to sit and have coffee with you and discuss that topic.

One example...when presenting choices the designer always includes one that the client is 99.9% certain to object to. A client always needs to object so it works well to get it over with. This is manipulation. I certainly never thought it was underhanded.

'


Underdog
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 6:21 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


Your problem is with the differences between the definitions of manipulation and decorating to the best of your ability.

If you no longer own a dictionary, look it up online.

 


Jim Broede
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 8:06 PM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


 

Could be. That I manipulated this thread. To go in this entertaining direction. If so, I’m a very clever manipulator. --Jim

 


Underdog
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 9:20 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


I've always thought that you are a clever manipulator. Who else could brag that they get their jollies off of antagonizing people and get a chorus of defenders?

Who else could state up front that they find hilarity in hurting people's feelings and calling them names, and receive love from your readers?

Who else would simply post the name Donald Trump in order to stir up trouble and get praise?

You are the master manipulator and as you say, equal to your creator, and I assume equal to the creator of all of your supporters.

 


Jim Broede
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:31 PM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


I try, Brother Underdog, to not take life too seriously. To see the funny side. To be jolly. I pretend that the world has a big, big Comedy Club. Where the creator himself. Comes for entertainment. And for relief from his daily grind. I’m a stand-up comic there, you  know. And the creator laughs at me. And came back stage. To tell me I’m one of the best comedians he’s ever seen. Wow! I nearly fainted. What a compliment. From my hero. Really boosted my morale. Now I need another huge challenge. Tell me, dear brother. What can I do? To make you laugh. --Jim


Underdog
Posted: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 11:24 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


This is the most mean spirited place I can imagine me coming to for help.

And by mean spirited, I mean happy-go-lucky.

Even Jim admits he saves his manipulation for his enemies but still manipulation means artfully arranging flowers.

I'm sure I entertain your hard-hearted cliques who hate conservative values, and by that I mean live up to your creator's expectations, which is of love.

Hey, this IS fun!

Thank you Jim for introducing me to playful eruditions.

 


Jim Broede
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:33 AM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


Really, brother Underdog, this is a nice place to come to. Full of camaraderie. We get along with each other. We treat each other kindly. And respectfully. At least, that’s the way I see it. I don’t know of anyone here in musings. With a mean spirit. But I do sense. That you are hurting. I know that your wife has dementia. And this may be affecting your mood. Your spirits. I wish you would talk more about your hurt. Really, we are here to help. To empathize. Tell us what you are going through. Instead, you seem to be in an attack mode. Of a very unhappy man. Lashing out. It’s difficult for me. To determine how to approach you. You keep misconstruing my intentions. I want to know you. And understand you. You are a difficult man to approach. I start asking questions. About your dog, for instance. And you rebuff me. And tell me I’m not worthy of even knowing your dog’s name.  Tell me. How much the dog means to you. Let that be a way for me to get to know you better. Tell me more about your life. Your interests. Your history. You know my name. My real name. But I don’t know yours. We are too much strangers. You think you know me. But you don’t. Both of us. Could do a better job. At becoming acquainted. And maybe becoming true friends. Some day. Let’s really think of each other as brothers. Rather than going through the motions. I’m trying to get things started. With these words. --Jim


Underdog
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 1:49 AM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


All you do is make me feel unwelcome here. Yes I'm in pain and our world is shrinking day by day. I would think that people that have gone through what I am going through would put aside ideology and focus on each other as human beings. I can see it is not going to happen.

My wife has one foot in dementia and one foot in awareness that she is losing her reason, personality and memories. I put that in front of everything... everything.

It's not that way for the people of this site so I'm sure that my time here is short.

Over the holiday season I've lost more connections. I actually asked of someone I had helped make successful for a small favor and was turned down. I will never be able to approach that person again and I'm sure I'm out of their life.

No one comes to visit. I have to take my wife to visit people and you know what? They are less and less desirous for us to visit.

What I see is that ALZ is just a microcosm of my own personal world. You are just a group of selfish people that put yourselves first and have the common thread of dementia, like a bowling team.

My Christian relationships are no better. I get thoughts and prayers from them galore. I have more thoughts and prayers than I know what to do with. I just don't have anybody to ask how I am. I'm asked if I'm considering suicide from various agencies more often than I'm asked how I am.

You people here are no different. I accepted contacts from some of you  but for the life of me I don't know why. There was no contact.

Enjoy your hilarious comedy and your praise from the creator itself. I never thought you were funny but plenty of people here do.

His name is Duke. He's been gone for two years and my wife cries over him. She still has flashes of seeing him and feeling him until she remembers he's gone.


llee08032
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 7:52 AM
Joined: 5/20/2014
Posts: 4405


Duke, looks and sounds like a beautiful creature! So sorry he is not there to bring your wife and you comfort and companionship. I'm on my third rescue dog. Bubby, looks and acts like my other two dogs combined. Have you thought about being rescued by getting another dog Underdog? 
jfkoc
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 9:02 AM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 18854


I have never felt that this was the forum to get help. Do you feel the same way about the spouse/partner forum?

For clarity, I do not arrange flowers. I arrange space and flowers may or may not be a part of the arrangement. By pure definition I manipulate space.

I have Luke and Nuke. Both large rescue dogs. Luke has seizures and 1/2 of on eye is blue. Part Husky? Nuke looks a lot like a large Australian.

Speaking of dogs, Mr Toad bought his wife and electrical lap dog which she adores. Maybe that would be something your wife would like.

Being alone, in sadness, no light at the end is to rough to explain to anyone. It can only be understood first hand.

I would certainly accept  an invitation to connect.


Jim Broede
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:31 AM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


Finally. Finally. A breakthrough, Underdog. You have been forthcoming. I thought you were hurting. And you really are. Let’s set ideology aside. It doesn’t matter. What matters. Is that you are hurting. And we have to do something about it. We are moving in the right direction now. Focusing. Focusing on your hurt. Your anguish. Your feeling of helplessness. This is what I wanted to know about you. From the start. The meaningful stuff. Not wasting our time. About stuff that doesn’t matter.  What matters is coping with your situation. You have cut to the core. You feel abandoned. Well, you aren’t. I’m with you. So are others on these message boards. I went through 13 years of the anguish you are going through. I’ve experienced it. And now, 10 years later, I’m still around. Living the good life.  And I reflect that. You’ll get there some day, too. You’ll learn to cope. To adjust. I’m here. To help. So are others. To give you hope. I want you to become a survivor. A true lover of life. Despite the pitfalls. Now the conversation can begin. Your most recent post says more than all your other posts combined. Let’s continue the dialogue. And address the issues. The ones that really matter. Not least, your well-being. Indeed. At this moment. You really do feel like my brother. Welcome home. --Jim


Underdog
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 1:14 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


You aren't with me. You don't change. You jab and stab and twist the knife. You poke at the pain and then brag how funny it is. How you are the creator's chosen comedian.

You've usurped 10% of the ALZ site with the blessings of every single member here. All to degrade one specific group.

Of course I'm in pain. Who here, besides you, isn't in pain?

It's just that anyone with conservative opinions aren't welcome here. That much is clear.

If you are still unclear whether or not you should have disdain for white supremacists, let me assure you that I know you wrote that as a jab. It's unclear to you? Really? I know it's not unclear. I know the association with Donald Trump.

Jab jab jab... stab stab stab... twist twist twist.


Jim Broede
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 1:41 PM
Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 5462


I don't understand your paranoia, Underdog. It is paranoia, you know. I like you. I respect you. I want to help you. But I don't know how. It's very frustrating. For me. I wish I could make you laugh. You need more laughter in your life. Find videos that make you laugh. And watch them. Day and night. Really, there's a funny side to life. Listen to your psychotherapist. --Jim
jfkoc
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 4:37 PM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 18854


Underdog...I had to chuckle about the dictionary. Boy, do we have dictionaries here. We daily use the 1971 Oxford English Dictionary. It is two volumes and  has it's own magnifying glass.

It is the authority for all Scrabble games.

So you know I had to look up manipulate. .To operate upon with the mind or intelligence to handle or treat with skill.

I think maybe manipulate has perhaps morphed to something sinister. sigh............

 


Underdog
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 5:56 PM
Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 327


Lol, jfkoc... very manipulative. You had to ignore a lot of your dictionary to isolate that one definition.

I go with the intent of the original poster, your friend Jim. Do you consider flowers your enemy?

lololol


jfkoc
Posted: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 6:42 PM
Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 18854


Really, the definition was right on top but it was from 1971.

Too funny about the flowers. I have not even the most rudimentary skill at arranging flowers. I do not grow them very well either. I have some beautiful old peonies and some interesting iris. I have a wandering Jew that is wilfull. The only other thing that I can count on are day lilies. Oh, I do love them and now they have some that bloom more than once.

I am doing some work here at the house and am thinking of Russian sage and maybe some catmint. I did OK with them in NM.

The dirt here is red clay. Not the dirt I grew up with in Chicago. Oh, my. The flowers one could grow there.

Do you have a favorite in y our yard? Color? I love white but think it does not look good as it fades.