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Originally posted by: ipoe
That is really a tough question..Our system is crazy in lots of situations..As a christian, i don't know if i would be able to do that either..only you can decide..have you talked to your pastor about it?it would seem to me that if you were still true to your one and only, in God's eyes you would still be married, but you know about the laws of the land. doesn't seem right to have to be this way..
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Originally posted by: ipoe
who advised you to get a divorce? Friends? or someone who knows?
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Originally posted by: Rkg
Bola, Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately some find the need to do just that. It's really something only you can decide. I would suggest speaking with an Elder Law attorney as to more options. I would also suggest speaking with someone at your Local Senior Resource Office. I believe they have counselors that might be able to help with suggestions. Again Welcome to the forums.
As far as your faith goes, honoring your marriage vow's through to the end can be accomplished in heart. A piece of paper means nothing in God's eyes. I hope that helps.
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Joined: 1/14/2015
Posts: 40463
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Originally posted by: bola
I am being told to divorce my wife of 21 years so she can get help. I am on ssdi and my check is 150.00 to much for ssdi for her. Nuts i know but thats our system.As a christian i need to honor marriage.So here is the question. If i divorce her to get the help she needs but stay married in every other sense of the word is it wrong?
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Originally posted by: Iris L.
Bola, I've read online of people divorcing so that the ill spouse may receive care, but I hope that those reports are few and far between. Please check out what the others are saying about consulting an elder attorney, Legal Aid and every other possibility. Are either of you veterans who served during a time of conflict? You do not need to have been in combat nor have a service related disability. Check out www.veteranaid.org and look for Aid and Attendance Pension.
Iris L.
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Originally posted by: Cathy J. M.
Your income should qualify you for free legal help; I'd contract your state's area agency for the aging to find out how to get it.
In addition to your concerns about divorce as a Christian, there are some future legal and financial problems that a lawyer can advise you about. If your wife eventually needs Medicaid, for example, then Medicaid will want her share of your house after she dies -- but not if you're her husband and still living there.
Maybe there are other ways to get your wife the help she needs. The area agency on aging should be able to help.
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Originally posted by: Mimi S.
Hi Bola, Welcome to our Boards. The thought of divorcing your wife for the reasons you give are horrible. I have, however heard of it.
Where is Pahrump?
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Originally posted by: rusty bob
I would talk to the pastor/priest at your church they may be able to suggest some kind of alternative or be able to help your wife get the care she she needs
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Originally posted by: Cathy J. M.
See this recent thread too, which has a link to a NYT article on this problem.
NYT article
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Originally posted by: Neoh
quote: Originally posted by Starling:
Do not do it. If nothing else you will lose the ability to make decisions for your LO because you will have no right to do so.
It is certainly more challenging to make sure you still have the ability to make decisions for you LO, but as long as you have the proper documents in place a couple does not have to have their marriage legally recognized to be able to make decisions for one another.
I am not advocating getting a divorce - I have not done the research to see if it makes sense (and wouldn't know enough in this particular case, anyway). I am, however, in the situation in which my marriage is still not recognized by the laws of our home state or most places we travel to - and we have legal documents in place which ensure that we can make decisions for each other.
If you are not married, but care for (or need to be cared for by) someone to whom you are not legally related (or not in the correct relationship) it is a good idea to seek legal counsel to make sure that the person you want to be able to make decisions for you is legally authorized to do so. That authorization happens almost automatically with marriage, but you can grant that authority to anyone regardless of the relationship.
The "almost automatically" qualifier was added because even when you are married you need to execute living will and durable power of attorney documents to address end of life decisionmaking and care (which even spouses are prohibited from making, in some states, without a written document in place).
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Originally posted by: Starling
Do not get a divorce until you have spoken to a lawyer who understands elder law in your state. You can find free or inexpensive legal help through your county's Aging Agency, the Alzheimer's Association and AARP.
Somehow, I doubt you've been given correct legal advice at this point. It is a common belief that divorce is a good idea in these situations, but it can actually make a legal hash out of your situation instead.
Do not do it. If nothing else you will lose the ability to make decisions for your LO because you will have no right to do so.
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Originally posted by: Neoh
quote: Originally posted by bola:
If i divorce her to get the help she needs but stay married in every other sense of the word is it wrong?
Without answering the underlying question as to whether you getting a divorce is a helpful alternative as a practical matter, marriage is both a legal and a religious matter.
My faith community supported (and still does) marriages which are not legally recognized (interracial marriages years ago, and now same gender marriages). It is our belief that God creates a marriage, and that humans - including the law - are mere witnesses.
From the opposite approach, couples married in the catholic church are treated as married by their church even after a civil (legal) divorce - even if they no longer want to be married.
My marriage will have existed for 28 years this fall, been recognized by my faith community for the last 16 years, and been recognized legally for only the past 5 years.
It is nice when the law and faith coincide, but they don't always - and marriage is just one example of the occasional disconnect.
Take care of yourself. Research whether what you have been told is even true (or the whole truth), then sort out with members of your faith community (including your minister - if his/her blessing is important) how to move forward with integrity.
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Originally posted by: Linda G2
I understand your thinking about divorce to enable your spouse to receive aid. I had considered that option as well. My hubby had less money than me and could have qualified on his own for all sorts of services. What learned, however, is that the Feds have a five year look back policy on your joint finances which frequently makes it next to impossible to qualify if you have had any decent income or assets.
Another consideration is that when you LO is sick you don't want to be denied acess because you are no longer related.
About being a good Christian please consider that Jews, Moslems and others have the very same moral dilemmas!
In the end, for us, it is easier for me to bear the financial burden, stay married and keep my hubby home with me.
I wish you well.
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Originally posted by: Iris L.
quote: Originally posted by JAB:
I have heard of instances in which the healthy spouse came into a marriage with substantial assets, and the only way to protect those assets was divorce. I do not recall ever having heard of advice to divorce in order to get SSDI.
Some states, like mine, California, are community property states. I think that makes a difference. You need to check out the laws for your state.
Iris L.
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Originally posted by: JAB
quote: It is certainly more challenging to make sure you still have the ability to make decisions for you LO, but as long as you have the proper documents in place a couple does not have to have their marriage legally recognized to be able to make decisions for one another.
Usually, that is true. But the Government takes a very dim view of people "divorcing" in order to protect assets or obtain aid when they actually intend to stay together and behave as husband-and-wife. That can be viewed as fraud.
I agree with the advice to talk with an elder law attorney who has plenty of experience with Medicaid issues and/or attorneys with tons of experience with SSDI, PLUS a divorce attorney. They may have very different views of the laws in this situation.
I have heard of instances in which the healthy spouse came into a marriage with substantial assets, and the only way to protect those assets was divorce. I do not recall ever having heard of advice to divorce in order to get SSDI.
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Originally posted by: Cathy J. M.
I think JAB is right tho when it comes to divorcing, applying for benefits and still living together. Actually, the SSI rep should know the answer to this; if SSI says it's OK, that would be different.
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Originally posted by: john1943
Another financial issue to consider is the matter of filing a joint income tax return versus two separate tax returns. Things like the taxable amount of Social Security benefits and the Alternative Minimum Tax might come into play.
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Originally posted by: Starling
Noah you are right that you can delegate anyone to make decisions for you. My daughter is my patient advocate for example.
In some states, however, if you divorce they won't let you name the ex-spouse as patient advocate. They will call it fraud instead.
In other states I guess divorce works, but it is only rarely the best way to go.
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Originally posted by: Neoh
quote: Originally posted by JAB: quote: It is certainly more challenging to make sure you still have the ability to make decisions for you LO, but as long as you have the proper documents in place a couple does not have to have their marriage legally recognized to be able to make decisions for one another.
Usually, that is true. But the Government takes a very dim view of people "divorcing" in order to protect assets or obtain aid when they actually intend to stay together and behave as husband-and-wife. That can be viewed as fraud.
That is an entirely different matter than I was commenting on. My comment was solely limited to the assertion that if you divorce, you lose the ability to make decisions for your spouse.
In fact, you lose only the legal presumption regarding who is entitled to make decisions. With respect to decision making authority, virtually all of the presumptive rights a spouse has to make decisions can be replicated through carefully drafted legal documents - and those rights can be assigned to anyone regardless of the nature of the relationship.
(And - if you do not have a spouse, you should seriously consider who you might want to make decisions on your behalf if you are unable to make them for yourself.)
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Originally posted by: SnowyLynne
If you have DPOA you have say so even if divorced.
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Originally posted by: JAB
quote: If i divorce her to get the help she needs but stay married in every other sense of the word is it wrong?
Bola was asking with regard to religious issues ... but there are legal issues, as well. I believe it would be prudent for bola to discuss the legal issues with attorneys who are familiar not only with the relevant Federal and state laws and regulations, but also the ways in which they are routinely interpreted and applied where he lives. And that he pay attention to Cathy's suggestions, too.
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Originally posted by: Neoh
quote: Originally posted by JAB:
But since this thread is about divorcing for the purpose of obtaining benefits that would be denied to a married couple, I felt it should be pointed out that to divorce under such circumstances WOULD lead to the loss of a spouse's rights to make decisions for the AD loved one. Should one try to circumvent the law by divorcing and then living together and duplicating all the spouse's rights by "carefully drafted legal documents", one would be guilty of fraud.
Making decisions and receiving benefits are two completely separate matters. Even if divorcing for the purpose of receiving benefits might, under some circumstances, result in losing those benefits anyway, you can still grant decision making rights to anyone of legal age - spouse, ex-spouse, friend, child, neighbor, parent. Crafting papers to specify your wishes regarding who is entitled to make decisions on your behalf is not fraud. The documents need to be carefully crafted not to circumvent the law, but because if they are not done correctly, they will be ineffective to carry out your wishes.
Since my marriage is in legal limbo - recognized in some places and not in others - what a couple can and cannot do by legal contract (as opposed to marriage) is something I am intimately familiar with.
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Originally posted by: Cathy J. M.
quote: Originally posted by JAB: [QUOTE] Cathy, I keep thinking about the fact that if you ask a question of an IRS agent and act in good faith on the answer received, if the IRS agent was wrong, you are up a creek without a paddle. I'd be inclined to consult at least one lawyer, maybe more, and not rely on a Government employee who might not have a clue what he's talking about. 
Good point. A retired Social Security employee told me once to get a formal letter in writing from Social Security approving any important legal change that might affect my partner's SSI benefits.
It took three lawyers though to find a viable solution. My experience was that even lawyers who are supposed to be experts in eldercare issues can be stumped by some problems. If something doesn't seem right, keep looking for a lawyer who makes more sense.
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Originally posted by: JAB
quote: That is an entirely different matter than I was commenting on. My comment was solely limited to the assertion that if you divorce, you lose the ability to make decisions for your spouse.
But since this thread is about divorcing for the purpose of obtaining benefits that would be denied to a married couple, I felt it should be pointed out that to divorce under such circumstances WOULD lead to the loss of a spouse's rights to make decisions for the AD loved one. Should one try to circumvent the law by divorcing and then living together and duplicating all the spouse's rights by "carefully drafted legal documents", one would be guilty of fraud.
Your comment appeared to be general and all-inclusive, and did not note that there are exceptions. I was pointing to a specific exception which is relevant to this thread.
Cathy, I keep thinking about the fact that if you ask a question of an IRS agent and act in good faith on the answer received, if the IRS agent was wrong, you are up a creek without a paddle. I'd be inclined to consult at least one lawyer, maybe more, and not rely on a Government employee who might not have a clue what he's talking about.
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Originally posted by: Iris L.
Some AD/dementia patients MUST divorce because their spouses are trying to take advantage of them!
Iris L.
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Originally posted by: Jim Broede
Often right and wrong is in the mind of the beholder. It's not always an either/or situation. What's right for one being may be wrong for another. You have to be able to live with yourself. Do what allows for that. No matter what you do, I would not try to judge you. --Jim
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Originally posted by: brightwings
Most state services are for people 60+ but it could be worthwhile to see if your wife or you qualify for any state services based on disability
NevadaAgingandDisabilityServices
I've found that and individual state caseworker may not know the details of what's available. Start by asking the one you're assigned, but if s/he tell you something isn't available, keep questioning and researching. (ask if you could speak to a supervisor or just find the head of the state agency on-line)
Even this current SSDI problem seems wrong to me
(ethically wrong but also maybe just inaccurate ) --who else could you contact in your state to find out about the rule (Can you call your US Senators office and ask for help )Could you get your own amount reduced by $150?
Buy some extra minutes on your phone for a few months (dealing with government agencies, there's alot of waiting) and prepare to become an expert on how to navigate the system..
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Originally posted by: mmendoza
I dont agree with divorce.Margo
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Originally posted by: JAB
quote: So if the spouse not needing Medicaid has separate property it is combined with the applicant's and total assets can only be a certain amount.
Yes and no. There are many ways to maximize the community spouse's share of the assets.
So if you haven't already consulted an elder law attorney who has a great deal of experience dealing with Medicaid issues, it would be a very good idea to do so.
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Originally posted by: Lorin
Bola, you are the enemy. I know that because I am the enemy. I was told the same thing by SSI to divorce my wife or I would lose my house and my retirement. As of today, it has been 9 years that I have been on this journey with my wife. Know this. You have lost your loved one, your retirement, your house and your earnings. And you are now subject to severe oppression and depression put upon you by our society. As soon as your loved one showed symptoms of the disease, you became the enemy, you just didn't know it. Jesus says to love your enemies. The hard part is: if you are the enemy, you must love back also. Do NOT divorce. There is a law that, if you give up everything, you can become your spouse's caregiver and they will pay you (less than minimum wage) until your spouse passes. At that time, be prepared to live under a bridge, because that is where you will be. I know because I will be there too. Through all this, never pray for an easy life, pray to be a strong person.
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Originally posted by: sans espoir
quote: quote:
Originally posted by JAB:
I have heard of instances in which the healthy spouse came into a marriage with substantial assets, and the only way to protect those assets was divorce. I do not recall ever having heard of advice to divorce in order to get SSDI.
Some states, like mine, California, are community property states. I think that makes a difference. You need to check out the laws for your state.
Iris L.
I am in a community property state also. In a workshop type setting, the discussion regarding divorce centered on Medicaid rather than SSDI.
As I understood it, SSDI counts as income as it is based on earnings already accumulated. Medicaid, which is income sensitive, may already eliminate as eligible persons whose SSDI is over a certain limit.
Where the divorce and Medicaid issue comes in was this: In a marriage in this state previously held property is counted as separate. But property received as gift and inheritance is also separate. Until that is, Medicaid is concerned.
Apparently there is no such thing as separate property to them. (Excepting a shared home, a vehicle and, I believe, pre-paid funerals.)
So if the spouse not needing Medicaid has separate property it is combined with the applicant's and total assets can only be a certain amount.
Giving, or gifting, to children, or anyone else, used to have a 36 month look back but it is now five years, with penalty periods imposed.
With a divorce, and sometimes a legal separation there is no look back- providing the separation/divorce is not deemed to be for the purpose of obtaining the benefit. There was a lot of discussion about "sole" v "primary" v "major" purpose.
I realize the original poster had a different context of the question, but thought the legal questions brought up on this thread were interesting.
I hope I can still link to that nyt article previously posted, mostly because I just noticed this thread is from quite some time ago.
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