I have read and read all over internet and here. Its so hard to pinpoint where exactly my FIL is, All i know is we need to do something. Change of meds? placement? SOMETHING

I can not rely on testing him as far as date, president, address , writing a check reading etc. He never went past 5th grade so IQ is low. 

Bathing./cleanliness problems..Ive been their caregiver for 7 yrs, he was always kinda "dirty" for his body..so now refusing to bath, shave and change clothes is the Norm for him

Not flushing toilet, also been like this since Ive known him

annoying habits, eating us out of house and home? his Norm, picky eater. His norm,  Fidgetting constantly rubbing his fingers together..his norm. Sucking in his mucous/nose snots with obnoxious noises.. His norm..

Stirring his coffee 15 minutes while clanking spoon on cup..his norm

Rude, aggressive, ornery, combative, argumentative..his norm..

Repeating the same stories over "old times' over and over again..His norm

Talking about old times and old town..his norm

Not picking up after himself, not even emptying his own ashtray while ashes and cig butts are all over the table, floor etc..his norm

Refusal to join in activities, socialize with other people his age, his Norm

OK I admit, its been 3 weeks and I am at wits end..something has to happen here.  Will be making an appt with a Neuro to see if he can be assessed and maybe given a diagnosis and placed on meds that will help him. Lexapro & Xanax dont seem to faze him at all..pacing and walking all over house , wont sit still for 5 minutes, still getting lost in the house after 3 weeks here,but can figure out how to get to fridge and eat everything in sight..when wandering thru house he CONSTANTLY touches everything..nothing is off limits for him.  We have now resorted to removing knobs off gas stove at night..put a lock on fridge but he found the key ( on top of fridge under cookie jar)

Prayers that the neurologist will help adjust your fil's meds so that some of the behaviors diminish.     Sounds like he's been a very challenging personality all along     

Hopefully the neurologist will help with referrals as well.

Hugs to you!

Thank you Bee...yes he has always been a handful , and now that MIL has passed, we are on tour of duty #2 with him 

Hoping we can get some answers/help next week with Neuro and his regular MD

I'm just wondering, was he different at the facility?

Have you investigated  PACE?  they can provide NH level care in-home by provision of local resources.  This is a Medi/Medi program. 

Program of All-Inclusive Care for the Elderly (PACE)

The Program of All-Inclusive Care for the Elderly (PACE) provides comprehensive long term services and supports to Medicaid and Medicare enrollees. An interdisciplinary team of health professionals provides individuals with coordinated care. For most participants, the comprehensive service package enables them to receive care at home rather than receive care in a nursing home.

Financing for the program is capped, which allows providers to deliver all services participants need rather than limit them to those reimbursable under Medicare and Medicaid fee-for-service plans. The PACE model of care is established as a provider in the Medicare program and as enables states to provide PACE services to Medicaid beneficiaries as state option.

Individuals can join PACE if they meet certain conditions:

Age 55 or older

Live in the service area of a PACE organization

Eligible for nursing home care

Be able to live safely in the community

The PACE program becomes the sole source of services for Medicare and Medicaid eligible enrollees. Individuals can leave the program at any time.

http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program-Information/By-Topics/Long-Term-Services-and-Support/Integrating-Care/Program-of-All-Inclusive-Care-for-the-Elderly-PACE/Program-of-All-Inclusive-Care-for-the-Elderly-PACE.html

 Iris L.

Thank you Iris  !  Never heard of this PACE Program. I will find out today..

As for the NH , he was very ambulatory, walked all over the place and knew where the Adminsitrators & Nurse Director's offices were, He would make a bee line to their office and grab their chocolate candy stash LOL

He was difficult as far as being uncooperative with bathing & changing clothes. As for meals, well he ate what he wanted, and they would make him Hamburgers at dinner in addition to his meal. which he asked for often..He was catered to, but had his aggressive moments when asked to do something he didnt want to do..

Called our Social Worker @ Elder care and she said PACE is not available in our county..only services available is what we get now, which is 18 hrs a week  

FIL has 4 people ahead of him for Meals on Wheels, so that could take months

Called 2 Facilities with Memory Care here in our area, no Medicaid beds available.

Tried Care.com..only a few responded and they are $14-16 an hour with a 4 hour minimum..

Visiting angels does not come here

OK brain fried ..no where else to turn. Have an ad out on private local site ISO companion/day care help. Lets see if I get bites on that. Then we have to screen and check references etc as they will be here in our home. UGH makes me very uneasy but we need to get more help..

well another STRESSFUL DAY!!!!!    Went to do errands while aide was here, and 3 hrs into her shift I get the dreaded call from her...FIL is threatening to smack her if she keeps telling him to bathe , she said she has tried everything and he smells since her last bath with him was 3 days ago.  He refused to eat his lunch, then 5 minutes later she had to get him out of fridge, rummaging thru the food . 

We left a pack of cigs for her to monitor for him. She said she went to give him one and he snatched the pack out of her hands and refused to give it back..

Hubby and I headed home and there he was, smoking a cig on the front porch and the aide there with him , begging him to come inside. I approached and asked what was the matter and right away he started in on me. Cussing, and saying he wasnt going to do a F***** thing that anyone tells him to do, if he has to, he will walk to his old house and kick the people out and he will move in etc etc etc.  No use talking calmly to him, all he does is yell back with "his demands".

Hubby tried to tell him he needed to listen to the aide, she was trying to help him etc. No use..

This yelling scenario went on for almost an hour. Hubby was afraid to just walk away since he might just get up and start walking..His fists were clenched when he was talking/yelling at me. So I was prepared to get sucker punched..I hate the thought of doing this, but if he continues with the aggressive behaviors and takes a swing at anyone, I will have to call 911. I was told that they would take him to the ER for a psych evaluation..

Has anyone had to do this??  Im scared to do it, not sure what will happen. One thing is what they say will happen and it may all go the other way. No way can I left them arrest him or put him in a cell..

Friday is his Dr appt. Hopefully he can change his meds/dosage

Thanks MLB, thats what I was planning on doing, I am just concerned of what will happen to him..

As long as they dont come out and take him in cuffs or to jail, I will call next time he does this again..

I know he is a ticking time bomb..when I was talking to him he clenched his fists and he was shaking, has face was all distortioned..I know he wanted to take a swing at me but showed alot of restraint...Hubby can not deal with this,,he was standing right there but didnt say a word to his father about this little temper tantrum.

I will call 911 next time..and let the 'relatives' say what they want. Can't deal with him like this anymore and I sure am not going to place the aide in danger either.

Right now I am so done with it all. BUT unlike before I do not have medical POA, my husband has guardianship, therefore until hubby decides to place his father, there is nothing I can  do 

IP, call your local police non emergency number and ask them if they take aggressive dementia patients to the hospital for geri-psych evaluations.  That way, you can be assured beforehand that is what they will do if you have to call 911.  If the police do this, then they come in a squad car and they may have to handcuff your FIL IF he is being aggressive.  They won't hurt him, but they will take him to the county hospital that has a geri psych ward and he will be admitted involuntarily.  The other question to ask is which hospitals in your area have a geriatric psych ward.  If, for some reason, the police don't know, call your FIL's doctor's office and ask the nurse about this.  The nurse should know.  If you need to, you can always ask his doctor to refer him for a geriatric psych evaluation.  The way it usually works with a doctor's referral  is you take your FIL to the ER and the ER doctor admits him to the geri psych ward. 

I'm really concerned for your safety.  It appears that your husband is powerless to act on your behalf against your father and I believe that you are going to have to be the one who makes the decisions here and forces things to happen.  I'm really concerned about your husband's inability to stand up to his father in this situation and his willingness to allow his father to basically damage your relationship and destroy your home life.  This is NOT healthy for any of you.  

With a supportive helpmate almost anything can be endured and success achieved. Without one? You are doomed to suffer and maybe even fail. If your husband can "refuse", I think you should be able to as well.

 ou said your husband is a lot like your father-and that is worrisome. I joke to my hubby that I may get ALZ and he says for me not to worry-he will take care of me and he's learned how to from the best care giver. Love that guy!

Tess thats cute!!!  Kudos to your hubby!!!

Ive told hubby in a joking manner ( in my mind I am not joking) even before his father got this bad, that IF he got older and turned into his dad, I'd put him in a NH in a heartbeat LOL.

My MIL was a saint to deal with FIl for 60 yrs!!!!  and I cant blame his "dementia" either, as long as Ive known him he has been rude, ornery, stubborn and just downright beligerant. Ugh   The stuff he says to people ( even before his 'dementia") freaks me out. He has NO decorum whatsoever. He thinks its funny to tell someone, Hey you sure are Fat, or go on get outta here, nobody invited you etc..

UGH people with SOME courtesy will laugh it off and say , oh your an old ornery fart..I simply cringe. 

Aide is here today, hubby just got out of bed, so I have dealt with FIL since 6am that he got up and I was trying to sneak some work in.  I told aide, I am here today BUT i need to work, so make believe I am NOT here and entertain him , PLEASE keep him outta my hair LOL...

Yeah lets see how this goes. Hubby is supposed to get out of here and go to the empty house AND do something..but then Ive been asking him to start finishing the master bathroom up here for the last 2 weeks. Nothing done. His excuse when I come home and say, well what did you do today? get started on the bathroom?  Noooo I had to watch dad all day  Ughhh yea mutual watching TV all freakin day long

And it begins !!!!   Aide here only 35 minutes, FIL already arguing and refusing to listen . He demanded a talk with hubby..we are all sitting at the table.  Once again FIL threatening to leave to his old house, and he is going to do what he wants, when he wants etc etc.  At least its inside and not for all the neighbors to hear and see..

OMG!!!!   I am trying to stay quiet and out of the situation..hubby is getting totally frustrated and trying to set his father straight AND it isnt working!!

I can't believe that you have to put up with this.  You must really love your husband.  I think I would say, it's him or me.   I took care of my ex husband's parents with dementia and worked a full time job.  They later moved in with my husband's wealthy single sister.  When that did not work out he was going to move them back in with me.  I finally said NO.  That did not go over so well, but it forced his family to take some positive steps towards care for them.  Sometimes you have to take a stand.

As you can see, I wrote "ex-husband".  Shortly after this, we divorced and I ended up taking care of MY parents, while he skipped off free as a bird.  

   IP, Your FIL sounds an awful lot like my Dad! (A bit of a domineering bully always, not just since dementia?) Your DH has probably spent most of his life just trying to avoid the "wrath of Dad" - walking on eggshells, not rocking the boat. In his defense, it's hard to break a lifelong behavior pattern, no matter how absurd it seems to the casual observer.

   I flat out refused to have my Dad live w/ me, despite my DH saying it would be fine. I knew better! You may find meds to mellow him out a bit, but the established dynamics of the parent/child relationship probably won't be overcome, leaving you in a very stressful, burdensome, & possibly dangerous situation.

   Your FIL needs to be placed. It is in ALL of your best interests to do so. Yes, my Dad raised holy h**l about it, had to do a 3 wk stint in Senior Psych, but eventually accepted his placement @ NH. In the long run, he was much better cared for, had more activities & socialization, better med management, & was a better adjusted person - almost happy! And, I can't begin to tell you how much better my life was, not having to deal w/ his temper tantrums & hostility all the time. Hoping your DH can step up to the plate & make this happen for you! Big hugs, Twink

Thanks you guys!!!  And both hit it on the nail..After much debate ( totally useless)  FIL walked off to his merry recliner and has been sitting there since causing the scene. He Did NOT take a bath and apparently has no plans to do it either. He won, he got his way , so he is happy and everyone else is stressed out and annoyed.

Husband figured, oh, hes quiet now so off he went to work..FIL and Aide are sitting in Living room watching TV..  PLEASE dont think bad about me, and if you dont agree, well , I am sorry but I am taking matters into my own hands.

The bomb will hit again as soon as Aide pushes the bath and clothes change situation..I will go into my room and call 911,  if FIL starts up.  Its going to be the only way to get him a psych evaluation and get some action done...

I fear the repercussions, as the idiot FIL sister still has 6 days to drag us back to court for guardianship again, although our attorney doubts she will..but we 've already gone thru $30,000 fighting her and if she pursues again, we will need the lawyer to help again UGH

Sorry I know my posts are getting boring LOL..Aide just left . I was here all day but no work accomplished.

FIL sat in recliner ALL DAY, Did not take a bath or change clothes. ( he has an appt with the Dr on Friday, oh well, let him smell like a wet goat)

FIL has not spoken a word to the aide after his little hissy fit this morning, nor has he talked to me.  He has refused lunch, snacks, or anything to drink except a can of pepsi. 

Its 5pm here now, hubby just got home and lit BBQ to let me make dinner. I am mentally exhausted and I am mandated floor duty tomorrow  

FIL will be served dinner and I am locking the fridge up again.  He is not going to snack all afternoon after he pitched his little fit and refused food all day long. Oh well..

God, when I say " what else can go wrong" , I am only kidding..LOL

Illinois-

Just remember the very true quote "To do something over and over and expect a different result is insanity".  That has helped me many times in impossible situations. Yours is an impossible situation.  It will not get better if you continue with the same living situation.  You need to act.  My opportunity came when my Mom fell (for the 3rd time) and although there were no serious consequences, I had her transferred to an ER where (thankfully) she had a small fracture of her neck which required a cervical collar for 6 weeks.  Without the rest of the story- that is what you need- something to get him to a hospital- then you work with the doctors to keep him for 3 days and then you have the transfer to the next facility.  YOU must take matters into your own hands and use any opportunity to call 911.  It looks like it could be as easy as someone asking him to bathe- get him in a rant and call 911.  DO IT!!!  YOU do not deserve this.  You have your own life to live also.  

Today is FIL appointment , I am going with hubby to talk to DR.  He has copies of the Nurses Aides notes since she started.

I was here for a while yesterday morning as hubby went to try and get some work done, I needed to cover till aide came.  FIL same, argumentative. Apparently goes on alot when we are gone. Her notes state on several occasions, FIL threathens her with going "knuckle to knuckle" if she keeps bugging him to bathe..or he has told her to stop bugging him or he is going to "whoop' her.  We have told him threats are NOT acceptable, but in one ear and out the other.

She told me yesterday, that in her 10 years of caring for elderly, dementia people, she has NEVER had one has combative as FIL. She admits that in her opinion he knows exactly what he is saying and its not that his dementia is that far along. He can tell her in great details about how he can get his old house back and recalls several attorneys in the area. he then says he is going to talk to one of them to get his house back as he is going to live in his old house, old neighborhood again and is going to do as he pleases, when he pleases..

He told her he hated living with his sister, she had too many rules, and he was not about to follow anybodys rules..( yea she made him bathe, not smoke, eat inside instead of on porch, clean the toilet after he dirtied it etc) 

Hubby is still insisting that Dr will change his meds and FIL will settle down. I doubt this seriously!  He wants to explore "everything" cuz he does not want to place his father  I can understand BUT the thought scares me , having to deal with the combative, argumentative and downright nastiness of his father and the total disruption in our house..He does not see or doesnt want to see that we have NO Life, we are like the president and vice president, we can never travel or do anything together LOL. Someone has to be with FIL at all times. AND FIL will never cooperate with anyone we bring into the home to care for him so we can both get back to our full time work in peace.

Although it seems like FIL is not as combative with hubby, well hubby does not make him do anything too.  I worked 12-6 in office and then had to do some home showings. I didnt get home till almost 9pm. Hubby made Tuna helper and they both had eaten by the time I got home. FIL apparently ate all. with me, he would  have refused Tuna helper and either not eaten it, or demanded mashed potatoes and gravy. 

I couldnt get into driveway as garbage day was yesterday and cans were thrown in the middle of driveway.  I came inside and told FIL, since he was always bored, he could help out around the house, starting with bringing in the garbage cans..he gave me a 'look' but went out and got them. Theres absolutely no reason why he can not have simple easy chores, they were both here and it took 5 minutes to bring in them. I sure as heck wasnt going to stop, get out of car, bring them up driveway and then pull my car in.. I actually work all freakin day. FIL does ZERO except, eat, drink pepsi, smoke and sit in recliner watching TV. Hubby maybe worked 5 hours yesterday at the other house. and from his description, he didnt get much accomplished anyways. UGH

Will post results of Dr visit..

IP, I hope you can see this post before the doctor's visit.  In your position, with the threats of physical violence, I would take the doctor aside and request a referral for a geriatric psych eval.  Then from the doctor's office, your next stop would be the ER of the hospital where this is to take place.  

PS: I would not attempt to get FIL to bathe or dress in clean clothes prior to the appointment.  I'd let the doctor see FIL as he normally is,  in all his ornery filth. (Roll down the car windows on the way to the appointment,)  Ask the doctor for help, tell him how bad things are.  He should be able to do something where your husband cannot bring himself to do it. The doctor can take the problem off of your husband.  It will not be your husband's fault FIL was placed.  The doctor insisted.